The Likability Trap: Navigating the Politics of Personality

Deb: Mhmm.

Kristy: People who have actual confidence don’t speak to people like that. People who are self assured and, like, confident they don’t have to speak to people like that.

Deb: You’re right, that does typically come from an insecurity.

Kristy: There’s no reason that he would need to put you down like that.

Deb: Wouldn’t it be nice to like call him out?

Kristy: Ooo, uh… we got to look him up. We got to look him up. He is old and unhappy somewhere, but I want to see it! I need to know!

Deb: I want to make sure.

Kristy: I want to make sure of it

Kristy: I forgot what question she sent me to ask you… that’s for the end, but I’ll find it eventually, I just got to make sure it’s ready. Oh! I found it, okay we’re going to be good on that. i still have a–I still have a headache. Um, let’s tell everybody about my new-my new energy drink plan.

Deb: Yes let’s. I’m very-I was very…

Kristy: This new situation is tough for me. We’re gonna get this set up.

Deb: Is it too-I’m close enough, I can move it.

Kristy: Yeah, but now you’re hitting your mic and that makes noise and…

Deb: I can’t move it. I can’t move it with one hand. There we go.

Kristy: Okay, it’s a little better. Anyway!

Deb: Hi.

Kristy: Hi! Deb’s back with me today.

Deb: Hello!

Kristy: We just loved having her so much last time!

Deb: If you made it through the last conversation, and you’re back, you’re our people. Come hang out with us sometime.

Kristy: Anyway, back to my um energy drink saga. So, um everyone has deep concerns for me here about my energy drink consumption.

Deb: We do.

Kristy: Um, they think I’m going to die, and I have stripped back within the last week because I’m like, I don’t know… It’s expensive for one! That’s probably my biggest—I’m like, this is like a-this is like a smoking addiction. I’m-I’m really…

Deb: So, tell everybody what you were consuming before you started scaling back, so they understand okay what baseline was for you.

Kristy: Probably like 3 months ago, I’m talking like mid my dad is dying, I was just like doing whatever I had to do,

Deb: To survive.

Kristy: chemical-wise to survive. And, on a caffeine chemical level, was probably doing like three-two… probably three cups of coffee a day and an energy drink.

Deb: Okay.

Kristy: The caffeine alone.

Deb: That’s a lot.

Kristy: Um, and so, within the last like couple of months, I stripped back to just like one cup of coffee a day and then an energy drink a day, and then-and that was either-I kind of like switched between Celsius, Peach Vibes, uh um Red Bull sugar-free, or an Aroma Joe’s Rush. All sugar-free.

Deb: Because that makes it better…

Kristry: Um, I love aspartane. Um, and so, within the last like week I’m like, “Okay I’m going to try going like a week without an energy drink” and just like seeing if I-let’s see what happens

Deb: See how that feels, yep.

Kristy: Let’s see if I like actually like can detox a little, and if my body like thanks me, and I sleep differently-better-whatever… and instead, what it gifted me with is a horrific migraine that I cannot shake…

Deb: Mhmm…

Kristy: And I’m not shocked by that, but it-it actually weirdly did take me a couple days to click into my brain, oh this is probably why I have this horrific migraine-feel like dying. But anyway um I discovered that the store has packets of energy drink powder instead of cans, because I’m not going to waste a whole can like to wean off and then like just pour a little into my thing and then waste a whole can. They’re very expensive!

Deb: Yeah.

Kristy: Um, but I found the packets and so I’m doing like a part of a packet with like-like Propel powder and seltzer so… that’s my new concoction!

Deb: Anyway.

Kristy: Anyway.

Deb: We digress.

Kristy: We digress.

Deb: What are we talking about today?

Kristy: Today we’re talking… Okay, so this, I don’t even remember how we started talking about this like…

Deb: Last week after we recorded our podcast.

Kristy: Okay, but I don’t remember how it came up. We were talking about how we’re just like such nice people.

Deb: Not in that way. That wasn’t how it came…

Kristy: We are just the nicest people we know!

Deb: The nicest people ever!

Kristy: Now, I don’t remember how it came into conversation, but we were talking about, on some way it came up, about how being… I don’t-we were, okay… jokes aside, we were not talking about how we’re just like such nice people, but we were talking about how certain personalities, like ours, like sometimes how that can be,

Deb: Perceived?

Kristy: perceived, and how it can like backfire on… like if you are, like… okay I’ll speak for myself and-and let you speak for yourself, I am very generally like-like happy go-lucky, silly, goofy, playful, I’m-I’m just like funny girl and how that sometimes affects me negatively in a corporate world because it-it makes me sometimes not be taken seriously. I am also, um I look young for my age, I’m-I’m short. I’m little! And…

Deb: You’re-you put off little sister vibes.

Kristy: I do and um I don’t know whether I consider myself young or not, but I guess maybe in a corporate world like… early—I’m not early 30s anymore—

Deb: No!

Kristy: mid30s is still somewhat young and I think experiences I had when I was younger, I’ll go with that instead, um how it did affect me negatively. Not being taken seriously, um how I have seen in throughout my life like men having more advantages than me, or even just like women that were much more serious, or older,

Deb: Come across more assertive.

Kristy: Come across more assertive, or just… the way that being just like playful, and fun, and young, and,

Deb: And nice.

Kristy: and nice, have really cost me—probably literally cost me money—cost me money and um cost me getting like walked all over and you were saying something similar.

Deb: I-all of the above. Everything you’ve said I can relate to. Um, I also tend to-I act younger than I—not intentionally that’s just…

Kristy: Yeah.

Deb: Um, people are often surprised to find out how old I am, so it’s like I’ve put in the years to earn respect in scenarios, but I may not view myself that way and then no one else will,

Kristy: Yeah…

Deb: if you don’t view yourself, you know? Like I might question myself more um but I do also like I tend to try to bring a positive energy, and I don’t want to bring anybody else down, so if I’m-I tend to compartmentalize the hard stuff so that I’m not putting that on anybody else,

Kristy: Yeah.

Deb: but then that can sometimes be taken as oh well you’re not taking this situation serious enough,

Kristy: Exactly.

Deb: and it’s like, no this is how I have to um compartmentalize this so that I can still function and do what needs to be done, even though this I know the situation is serious, but that doesn’t mean I can’t be you know playing music and singing along and being silly with my kid. You know? Like there’s just things… um that’s just my personality, and then also—I mean we’re not we’re not going to get into childhood trauma on this episode of the Free Dive podcast—um but there are things that kind of instilled early on, don’t rock the boat, don’t cause any more problems, there’s enough stuff going on. What you might be dealing with probably not that big a deal, just deal with it yourself, and make everybody else’s life easier around you and that definitely has bitten me in the butt more time than-more than once.

Kristy: Yeah. Yeah.

Deb: In work settings, um in family settings, and all sorts of situations. So it’s been trying to figure out, as I am older now—no longer 30s, barely 40s still not for much longer—um learning how to… not just stand up for myself but even just to speak up in general.

Kristy: Yeah.

Deb: Like to accept that hey the-the opinion, the-the thoughts, I have on this situation, on this work call, or whatever, like my thoughts are equally as valid as anybody else’s. My questions don’t mean I’m stupid.

Kristy: Yes.

Deb: That’s been a big one for me, um and I have had past employment-employers that did talk down to me and did criticize me for not knowing something that he thought I should have known.

Kristy: Yeah.

Deb: When in reality it was something… I was told specifically, do not do this, pass this off to a different department. Do not quote prices. That’s not your job, like, send it off to someone to quote the price. And then new person comes in—this was when I was-this particular story i was early 20s maybe like 21, 22—

Kristy: Right.

Deb: and I had worked at this company for a couple of years. Maybe I was 23 by then. And it was a-a propane oil company, and in the customer service department I had a bunch of different jobs in there, I was good at my job, I had no problems, I dealt with the customers well, like I was good at what I was doing there. And this new propane service manager, whatever, came in and I was transferring a call, like this person wants a quote for propane, because for those of you who don’t know propane cost depends on how much you use, the more gallons you use the lower your price per gallon, so there was a whole like…

Kristy: Equation?

Deb: It wasn’t like you call in, “what’s the price of oil?” and it’s a flat price. Propane doesn’t work that way.

Kristy: Okay.

Deb: So, we were told, “Do not quote prices, send it to the department.” And this new guy is just like, “Come on Deb, you know this one, what do you think their price would be?” And it was

Kristy: And he was new.

Deb: And he was new, he was probably in his early 40s at the time, and just came in with that condescending… and I’m like, “Excuse me sir,” this is all in my head, I just stood there like, I didn’t even know what to say. I just felt so tiny and I’m like, well we were never trained to do that.

Kristy: Ohh, that would have lit a fire under me…

Deb: and I didn’t say anything, I left that day, I cried the whole ride home, and there had been some other stuff that had been going on that I was like… I was ready to be done,

Kristy: Yeah…

Deb: like I was getting so… the price of oil went up to $2 a gallon, like overnight, and it had been like… less than a dollar a gallon back then? We’re talking a long time-this is like 25 years-ago 20 years ago, so this was a different time than now. But it was like there was a big jump and I was getting like screamed at on the phone by customers at 7:00 in the morning,

Kristy: Yeah.

Deb: like sworn at,

Kristy: Yeah.

Deb: they just unleashed everything on us, like it was our fault. Regardless.

Kristy: Also, it sounds like it wasn’t your job to know, it was his, like why is he saying to you…

Deb: With that part, yeah,

Kristy: “You know this one, Deb. Come on.”

Deb: Like I’m-I’m busy doing more important things, you can’t handle this yourself?

Kristy: It’s your job, Dude.

Deb: Well, I was specifically told, by the owner, not to do that.

Kristy: That is so condescending. So demeaning.

Deb: So to talk to me like that-and that, I gave my notice within a very short time after that. I’m like I can’t-I can’t do this anymore.

Kristy: Do you think it’s because… because, okay, so he-dynamics there, dynamics. He’s new,

Deb: Yep.

Kristy: but he’s a man and he’s,

Deb: Older.

Kristy: older, a lot older, do you think it was because… cause like in any other scenario at a company someone new coming in talking to someone who’s been there for years, that’s super inappropriate—I mean it’s inappropriate anyway, no one should be talking to anyone like that but—talking to someone who’s been there for years, I mean, so out of line and not called for, but do you think it’s because you were younger? Do you think it’s because you were a female? Do you think it was a little bit of both? Do you think it was something else?

Deb: I think it was a lot of things. I think it was those.

Kristy: He was in a “higher position than you”.

Deb: He was in a higher position, I was just a customer service rep, Kristy.

Kristy: Yep, yep.

Deb: Which became a very pivotal story for myself that I’ve had to deal with for years and still have to like not just see myself as, oh I’m only good enough to answer the phone.

Kristy: Yeah.

Deb: When that’s-when I look at it logically and list out all the things that I have done in my life it’s like, yeah that’s BS.

Kristy: Yeah, yeah.

Deb: But in those moments, I still-this is-this is honestly still been a challenge with me even now, like and it’s nobody else’s fault, but I am more likely to like if I have a question in a meeting I feel very self-conscious asking the question in a big group meeting.

Kristy: Yeah.

Deb: I would rather one-on-one ask somebody that I know will have the answer after the fact,

Kristy: Because you’ll feel dumb?

Deb: Because I don’t want to feel dumb. Like, “Oh what are they going to think if I ask a question i really should know the…” because that-that brings in my head, “come on, Deb, you should know this by now. You’ve been doing this for how many years, now? You should know the…” and that… I never connected it to that, we’re having-we’re having aha moments here.

Kristy: Wow! Aha moments here. Oh screw that guy.

Deb: That line will ring in my head, “you should know this.”

Kristy: “You should know this.”

Deb: “They’re going to think you should know this. They’re going to wonder what you’ve been doing for the last three years.”

Kristy: “You know this one, Deb.”

Deb: And I know that’s not the case, and I watch other people ask questions,

Kristy: Valid questions.

Deb: very valid questions—I mean we work with a lot of different clients, there’s a lot of projects here, no one can know everything about all of the clients at any given time. You know? Like,

Kristy: Yeah.

Deb: everybody has their lane and-and I watch other people, with way more experience, ask questions.

Kristy: Yeah.

Deb: Maybe the same question a few times, because just something about it is just not clicking, and they don’t hesitate to ask the question.

Kristy: Right.

Deb: Why am I hesitating to ask the question?

Kristy: Right. Or when-when people do ask questions in meetings some–often times–I feel like it’s-it almost makes them look more intelligent,

Deb: Yes!

Kristy: because it’s almost like, wow, what a creative thinker, I wouldn’t have thought to ask that.

Deb: Yes!

Kristy: That brings up a great thought, a great idea, instead of making them look like, okay idiot, the answer’s obvious, but it feels like that because you should know this one, Deb.

Deb: Right. Right! And it’s like, and that-that shouldn’t be the case and I don’t know how much of it is the nice girl thing like just trying to… or it’s not even just nice just not-you know I want to fly under the radar just so I don’t get any-any attacks, and no one here has ever shown any inclination of being that way, they’ve been the complete opposite, but that-that’s still in there and that’s hard to… and then it does hold you back like, what more could you be doing if you were… like how-how is that being perceived? Not asking the questions.

Kristy: Yeah.

Deb: Does it show that you’re… does it-is it interpreted that you’re not as engaged, that you’re not as valuable an asset…?

Kristy: And so, that brings up like a bit-like so I think about this all the time, and this is what I want to talk about, is like, how do you think like—this is a question I ask myself, this is like something I’m-I want your opinion on—how do you think like presenting yourself, not just even just at work, but like in the world like, makes a difference on how people treat you back? For instance, like how you-how you dress, how you present your face, if you know if-if you’ve ever been to um, I mean anything, a meeting, a-a first date, anything, and you come in very light, and friendly, and just very get cute, and charming, and just like very mousy, like people treat you one way, or if I walk in with my RBF on, and just very cold, and stoic, and quiet, and mysterious, and waiting, and I sit down quiet, you know what I mean? If-there’s-there’s different angles to come at things,

Deb: Yep, yeah. Yeah.

Kristy: that can be very intimidating. If I walk into things in a very intimidating cold way, I get treated very different—I’ve tested this—and I get treated very differently, versus me just bouncing on into work, or into a-a family dinner, or a date, or into the grocery store, and how I get treated by a cashier versus me just being super friendly, silly, whatever, people treat you differently. And how much am I willing to change who I am as a person, because it’s-it is not who I am, most of the time unless I’m having a bad day, to,

Deb: Right, right.

Kristy: to put on this fal-I’m not willing. I’m not willing to show up as a different person,

Deb: Right.

Kristy: so that I will gain an additional level of respect. It shouldn’t have to be.

Deb: Yeah, no I agree with that, like it-it is… we all need to kind of check our perceptions of people.

Kristy: Mhmm.

Deb I feel like,

Kristy: Mhmm.

Deb: cause we were talking about this earlier off camera like, how we can um run into this issue with how we perceive people.

Kristy: Yeah…

Deb: Like there’s-there’s all sorts of different ways we might perceive someone based on what they are presenting. Nice or otherwise. Like, for me personally, I am very unsettled by people I can’t read,

Kristy: Yeah.

Deb: and especially that type that like if you come in and you’re like, especially a female, you’re super assertive and you just are confident and like you don’t… it’s like you’re… holding your cards close… like you can’t-you can’t just you tell-you can’t tell where you stand with them.

Kristy: Right, right.

Deb: And anything like that I get super uncomfortable with.

Kristy: Yeah.

Deb: Um, and then I tend to mask more.

Kristy: And, which mask-which mask do you go for? Do you go for like a “I need to be even more friendly” or “I need to retreat into also being…”

Deb: I need to retreat. I need to just… not rock the boat. I-I feel like I have to mask more,

Kristy: Like match…

Deb: because who I really am… not-not mask matching their energy, I just kind of want to fly under the radar and I’ll just-I’ll be pleasant and friendly and not like… but I also am more guarded, I guess,

Kristy: Yep.

Deb: in those type of situations.

Kristy: Yeah.

Deb: If I don’t know where I stand with you, I’m more uneasy.

Kristy: Yeah, yeah. Well, and going back to what you started to say about how-so this is like a-it it goes both ways, right? Like are we-are we also doing this to other people? Like am I-is this something that I’m doing? Am I-am I treating older people, for instance,

Deb: Yeah.

Kristy: Like-like just with this judgment of like, they’re all just all kind of old and dumb and don’t know how to use technology or don’t-don’t know how the modern world works, can’t keep up with the Gen Z, or am I treating younger people coming in like,

Deb: Oh, those Millennials, oh, those Gen Z.

Kristy: have no experience, have no experience, you are just new to this industry and you know nothing.

Deb: Yeah.

Kristy: So, I’m going to just-I’m going to-

Deb: I’m writing off a whole generation.

Kristy: I’m going to treat you like that guy treated you, like, there, there,

Deb: Yeah.

Kristy: You-you know, you deserve minimum wage cause you know nothing, and I’m going to talk to you like you’re five because you know nothing. You deserve to be treated subhuman cause you haven’t earned it yet. Am I doing that?

Deb: Right!

Kristy: It’s something really good to ask myself, because I can’t stand it!

Deb: Right.

Kristy: To be treated any differently because of how I look and present for who I am before someone gets to know if that’s true.

Deb: Right.

Kristy: You know?

Deb: Yeah.

Kristy: Am I doing it?

Deb: Right, and I find for me, like, I especially, given some of these past experiences and the one that I-I told you was not the only one that I’ve had, but for me in um not assuming that all men are going to be that condescending,

Kristy: Yeah, yeah.

Deb: like that and I’ve been challenged with that, and I know some of them are going to be watching this, um—you guys are awesome—but like I have, like, my whole department that I am part of is all men.

Kristy: Yeah.

Deb: And we have meetings every week and—they’re totally going to call me out on this after they watch this episode but—I catch myself still just like okay like just I’ll-I’ll pause before I say something or I’m like, oh is this going to be the thing I say that’s going to make everybody raise an eyebrow at me?

Kristy: Yeah.

Deb: As-as the dumb girl who doesn’t know what she’s, you know? Like that and they’ve never acted in a way, I need to make that clear, like they’ve never treated me that way, but there’s always that like, is this going to be the thing I say that’s going to like, oh there it is. There it is. Oh cute little Deb there she doesn’t know what she’s doing again. Like…

Kristy: Whereas I feel like instead, they’re all really good, the men on this team are really good at,

Deb: They’re great!

Kristy: at praising us for,

Deb: They are!

Kristy: for doing a good job or… I’m not going to name, I’m not going to name names, one of them a couple weeks ago after we got off of a meeting and messaged me privately and was like, “You know what, I love-I love seeing you in like… I really enjoy like fun Kristy wearing pink fur mode but like I also really enjoyed watching you in like boss lady mode in that meeting today like that was intimidating and I loved it!” And I was like, “Thank you so much!” That was like an amazing-an amazing compliment, thank you. Because I can, we-we are all multifaceted, right? Like I can sit here in my fur and and laugh and joke and be stupid, but when it comes down to business like I can get down to business, and so it-I-that is why I really do get triggered and angry when I am underestimated and just like she’s just little goofball baby sister who doesn’t know anything. No brains in her head. You know, she’s just…

Deb: Cause she’s just so silly doing those Tik-Toks,

Kristy: Correct.

Deb: and just, you know, not working.

Kristy: She just… knows nothing. When I am, I don’t need to stand up here and defend myself but I will, I am educated and been doing this for, you know, over eight years and I have a ton of knowledge on many things that no one else here can do. Like…

Deb: Right, well, yeah exactly, and like I’ve even thinking too like this may be like oh this is the first time I’ve worked for an agency doing marketing whatever,

Kristy: Yeah.

Deb: It’s like, my husband has had his own business the entire time we’ve been married which is 28 years now and I’ve done all the marketing, I’ve done direct mail, I’ve done, like, I’ve managed all of that stuff for years, for his business, for our business together. We’ve done rental properties. We’ve done like, I had my own business as a VA before I came here, like I’ve done, I’ve gone, I’ve taken the classes on the social media marketing.

Kristy: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Deb: I’ve taken the classes on email marketing. It’s like, yeah, I’ve got more experience than I feel like is valid. I don’t know why, it’s like, I always downplay, and that is not beneficial in a corporate or agency or whatever environment because like you said like it… is it holding you back by not like, you’re like, “No, look I know what I’m-I-I may not know everything but I’m putting the time in. If I don’t know it I’m going to figure it out and I’m going to do a good job at it, because that’s what we do. You know? And not giving ourselves credit, why is anyone else going to give us credit if we don’t give ourselves credit?

Kristy: That’s a good point, that’s a really good point.

Deb: That’s-it’s a constant work in progress.

Kristy: Yeah. And so, going back to masking, it’s like do you-do you find yourself doing that? Do you feel like it is justified doing that? How much do you feel like you need to do that?

Deb: I probably don’t need to as much as I do. Um, I will say with that, it’s funny i’ve never-I’ve heard the-the term masking more in recent years with you see more like ADHD adult women getting diagnosed and all that stuff like it’s-it’s everywhere it’s all that’s through all my Instagram feed and whatnot, i am one of those people um that discovered this with a child getting diagnosed. It’s like, wait a minute, like the more I learn about I’m like, oh my goodness, this is why everything was so hard. This is why I had to pretend in school that it wasn’t as hard as it was like, so I’m like that whole masking thing I think of it in that term, like I’ve been doing that since I was a teenager.

Kristy: Oh yeah…

Deb: Like and so now in my late 40s I’m like just discovering all of this. It’s like, oh maybe I didn’t have to? Did I not have to do that?

Kristy: Yeah.

Deb: Like could I have just-would that have been okay? Or was that protecting… and-and when does it stop?

Kristy: Yes.

Deb: and that’s where I’m at now. Like it’s not… Maybe it served its purpose. Maybe there was a time in my life where it-it helped me.

Kristy: Yeah, protected you, maybe.

Deb: Yeah, yeah exactly, but it’s not helping me anymore. You know? It’s just holding me back,

Kristy: Holding you back.

Deb: and keeping me thinking like, you know, a teenager who’s just having to work way harder than everybody else to do the same work. Like it’s keeping me stuck there, and that’s-that’s what I’m working on working through now to try to take that mask off a little bit, and ask the questions, and I still struggle with it… I’m better!

Kristy: Yeah.

Deb: I’m better.

Kristy: I do think like it’s a work in progress.

Deb: But for sure there’s definitely… there was a meeting recently that I was on just a couple weeks ago, it was like a teamwork training, and I literally am like she showed something and I’m like, “oh yeah, I should know this, this is a silly question, but I’m gonna-I’m gonna ask her after…” like and I didn’t ask the question in the meeting. And I’m like I don’t know why… and there was no reason like no one would have cared I don’t know why. It’s like that habit. It’s-it’s breaking…

Kristy: It is-it is a habit to break.

Deb: It’s like-it’s like quitting Celsius, cold turkey.

Kristy: Quitting your Red Bull or Celcius.

Deb: You know? And it’s like, you quit cold turkey and you’re just going to get a migraine.

Kristy: Yes…

Deb: Like, okay I’m going to wean myself off of this…

Kristy: It’s a good goal. No, that’s a good way to look at it.

Deb: Yeah.

Kristy: It will take some trial and error I think to,

Deb: Yeah.

Kristy: to get… especially since it’s a life long ingrained habit,

Deb: Yeah!

Kristy: and it’s your-it’s literally your personality.

Deb: Yep.

Kristy: Yeah. I-And that is how I feel for myself like I feel like it, like, literally, like you said, it goes back to childhood, and like it is-it is a learned habit of like, how much-how must I present myself to be accepted and respected, and…

Deb: How much can I push back without pushing people away?

Kristy: Yeah it does-and

Deb: Like standing up for yourself and setting boundaries.

Kristy: Yep, it does go into like, how do I want to rock the boat on this subject, and-and-and do I want to create a confrontation? I think that’s really,

Deb: I hate confrontations…

Kristy: it always comes down. Yeah, me too! I-It always comes down to that, and do I want to with this person in particular? Am I going to create an issue over this? Is it worth it? Or do I want to just smile and make it be fine? And…

Deb: And sometimes you, you know, you’re out with a client and maybe you do need to just smile and deal with it later,

Kristy: Exactly, exactly.

Deb: and it’ll be fine.

Kristy: There’s a professional line.

Deb: For sure.

Kristy: Right? You can’t always just walk into everything and,

Deb: All gun’s ablazen!

Kristy: get your way! Get your way.

Deb: Right.

Kristy: No, obviously there’s a professional line there, but at the same time, um you know, I just-I think about another… I-I think about a person that I have worked with in the past, who she was total opposite personality from me, you know? She just, she wasn’t an unkind person but she was a very-a very stoic, a very serious, a very down to business person. And she, I-I felt like she tended to get respect more than I do because she would just walk into a room, she would walk into a meeting, and she would command respect because people didn’t know what she was thinking, and people assumed she was very intelligent, and people would hang…

Deb: Because if you show up like that, of course, you must be.

Kristy: People would hang on her every word, because they—and I’m just, this is just the truth—I noticed, men in particular, wanted to gain her, like, her-her respect and like, what is she… like what is she holding out from me? But because I’m a very open, I’ll tell you anything, here’s what I’m thinking, i’ll laugh along with you kind of person, they didn’t-they don’t really feel the need. Like I-I hand out my admiration very easily and you can lose it very easily but I don’t make that very clear,

Deb: Right.

Kristy: and so with this person it, you know, I’ve always really struggled with that, that I’m not willing to be that kind of personality, just,

Deb: Because it’s not true to who you are.

Kristy: It’s not.

Deb: It would be a different mask.

Kristy: It-I’m not willing to-to be that, until I have to,

Deb: Right.

Kristy: and I can! I don’t enjoy it, but I’m not willing to be that just to gain respect, and like commendation, and money. I’m not willing to do it. Um, but I have seen that that tends to play out better for people. Um, and I hate that that’s a truth that is true in this world. Um, but through my life I have learned, um, how to just kind of slowly through experience kind of stick up for myself. There was another job that I worked in years ago where I had gone to college for this-for this job, and um I had been there for years, and this other person came in and uh started working there and we were discussing our pay. And they revealed to me that we were getting paid the same amount of money!

Deb: And how long had you been there?

Kristy: I had been there for at least a couple years, and I had education and she did not! And you better believe that was enough. I am motivated by rage. Easily motivated by rage—rage and money. And uh I marched right up to my boss and was like, “Excuse me I have learned that this person is making as much money as me, can you explain to me why that is?” And she was so-my boss was so angry and was like, “Why are you discussing your pay with other people?” And I was like, “Um,”

Deb: Uh, not the point.

Kristy: Because number one, it’s the law that I can and that’s a crazy thing to ask me. Crazy thing to ask me. Pay transparency, babe. And also that’s not the point of this conversation, I have education, and I have seniority here, and that’s fully insane. Why are you hiring people off the street? She was older than me, this person who was new, she was-she was married and had children, and um she was just a much more serious, kind of mean, person. And I was young, I was probably 22, and I was single, I didn’t have any kids, and um but I was college educated and had been there for a couple years. And I was so angry. And so she gave me a raise—she angrily gave me a raise—and it wasn’t even that much of a raise. And I was just and she was just like, “You’re not supposed to be discussing your pay with other people.” And I was like I will. In fact, you’ve motivated me to march around these halls tell everyone what they’re getting paid. Oh, it lit a fire under me, but I got-I got what I wanted!

Deb: I did not handle my situation the same way at 22.

Kristy: Well, and I’ll tell you, throughout my life I have not handled everything that way, and I’m not-I’m-I don’t really feel like I necessarily handled that the best way I could have,

Deb: Right.

Kristy: or the most professionally, but,

Deb: You went on the other side…

Kristy: but what I’m saying is, what I’m saying is, is-I’m like, in that situation like that really was unfair to me. I’m like, there’s no reason she should have been making more money than me. There’s no reason. I knew.

Deb: Yeah.

Kristy: I talked it through the-the girl, the new girl, agreed with me she was like, “Oh that’s crazy that we’re making the same amount of money.”

Deb: Right!

Kristy: There’s no reason. She agreed she did not have as much experience as me. She wasn’t college educated, she was like, I’m brand new to this! And I’m like, that’s insane. So, you know, there’s times that I have been able to, uh, I have learned-I learned through that experience like that was really difficult to do but I’m glad I did. Um… And I-I-I-I’ve taken away from that, I-I wish I had done it a little differently, and not acted in rage,

Deb: Yeah, yeah.

Kristy: But, um, so I’m not encouraging anyone to go storm their boss right now. Like please don’t do that.

Deb: No, that is not the take away!

Kristy: I listened to the Free Dive podcast and got fired! Please don’t…

Deb: That’s not our goal here!

Kristy: Not my goal here. But, um yeah, it’s just um I-I think my takeaway from it is uh number one, the world’s not fair, and number two, I think learning through experience and um how-how you-how you’re being treated and how you should be treating other people is something worth reflecting on, because I have caught myself treating other people in ways that I’m like, I should not be speaking this person like that.

Deb: Yeah.

Kristy: I’m-I am prejudging them and don’t know them well enough and their experience, and am I-is there a prejudice behind this person because they’re older, because they’re younger, because they’re male,

Deb: Male or female.

Kristy: because they’re female, because they’re-because they don’t dress well to come to the office, or whatever, like it’s-it really is there is a lot of prejudice behind those things.

Deb: Yeah, for sure! And then how can you find a balance for your own behavior that still feels like you.

Kristy: Yes.

Deb: And-and be the nice person, and be this the silly one, or whatever, who brings joy and helps the morale and whatnot, but at the same time also know your own worth, and advocate for yourself whenever you can, and that’s going to feel uncomfortable if you’re not used to doing it.

Kristy: For sure.

Deb: It’s absolutely going to feel uncomfortable.

Kristy: For sure…

Deb: But, um, it starts with respecting yourself and your own value too. Like, you got to-you got to dig in, okay if this is something I’m not happy about, what do I need-how do I need to show up differently that still stays within this realm. It’s a work in progress.

Kristy: It is. It is. Like even, isn’t that interesting, like even being like the ages that we are, that it’s still like a learning curve.

Deb: Yeah!

Kristy: Because you do still want to be authentic to who you are and,

Deb: Yeah, I don’t want to be a mean person.

Kristy: You don’t want to be a mean person!

Deb: Not that they’re mean, but just,

Kristy: You want to be…

Deb: I want to be myself. I don’t have the energy to pretend,

Kristy: Mhmm.

Deb: I’m different than I am.

Kristy: But you want to be able to command respect,

Deb: Yes.

Kristy: When you when you deserve it.

Deb: When you… Yeah, yeah.

Kristy: Or when you are the one speaking.

Deb: Or even see the respect when it is given and not just dismiss it,

Kristy: Yes.

Deb: because you don’t think you deserve it.

Kristy: Yes, that’s a good point too. So it starts with you.

Deb: It starts with you. You can’t control how other people are going to respond to you, but you can control how you’re showing up. Are you showing up as timid like not sure you should be in the room?

Kristy: Yeah.

Deb: Or, are you showing up like, okay all questions are valid, regardless of how it’s going to be taken by other people. Really wish I had stood up to that guy 20 years ago…

Kristy: I really wish you had too…

Deb: Ohh!

Kristy: Can we go find him? Can we go find him?

Deb: I remember his first name, I don’t remember his last name.

Kristy: Okay, I really want to find him. Are you listening?

Deb: I doubt it. “Come on, Deb, you should know this one.” Ugh.

Kristy: Ugh. He, you know what it is I bet you, he didn’t know and he needed you to know. That’s what it was. And so he was,

Deb: He didn’t want to have to ask.

Kristy: he was deflecting.

Deb: That could be.

Kristy: He need-that is what-that is what a small man would do in that scenario. Clearly he was a small man, because why else speak to you like that. People who have actual confidence don’t speak to people like that.

Deb: Right. Right.

Kristy: So to do that I’m like, he was deflecting to get the attention off of him because he didn’t know, cause,

Deb: Right.

Kristy: why else speak to you like that?

Deb: Right.

Kristy: People who are self assured and like confident they don’t have to speak to people like that.

Deb: Right, you’re right. That does typically come from an insecurity.

Kristy: Right.

Deb: That’s a good point.

Kristy: There’s no reason that he would need to put you down like that.

Deb: Wouldn’t it be nice to like call him out on that now?

Kristy: Uh, we got to look him up. We got to look him up. He is old and unhappy somewhere. But I want to see it! I need to know!

Deb: I want to make sure.

Kristy: I want to make sure of it!

Deb: You are still in my head 20 years later.

Kristy: No, we’re going to burn that out. Now that we’ve realized that that is what sits in your head when you don’t want to ask a question, I think you’re going to start asking more questions.

Deb: Yeah.

Kristy: Yeah.

Deb: For sure.

Kristy: There’s not, I-I, reflecting on the fact that you know when you see other people in meetings asking questions and that the response they get is so positive and like, wow great question! You’re a deep thinker for that one! It-it-it really does just gain you more—I did it recently too and I get why it’s scary and it,

Deb: It shows that you’re engaged and it shows that you’re a part of the conversation.

Kristy: You’re paying attention.

Deb: Right.

Kristy: That is a good point.

Deb: Right.

Kristy: You’re participating, you are really listening, because if you’re asking a question it shows that you are really listening to something and you want to understand.

Deb: Yeah.

Kristy: So, that is why I think asking questions is really good if-if I-if I am running a meeting and someone asks me a question, it feels good because it makes me feel like they are really trying to understand what we’re talking about.

Deb: Right. They’re engaged.

Kristy: They’re engaged. Unless they’re asking me some kind of like really patronizing condescending question,

Deb: Right, but how often…

Kristy: how often does that even, you know, you should know this one Deb. Like that’s different. Um, I did that recently in a meeting like a week or so ago and it was a meeting that had like 75 people in it and I was like, I’m really really scared to raise my hand but I did and I felt a little dumb but I also was just like I don’t care this is-this is… I think me asking this question, I could-I could discern in the conversation… So, someone had asked a question before me and the person running the meeting did not properly answer his question, and I could just see that person sitting there just like, he was like, does that answer it and the person was clearly like, mhmm… and I was like, I’m gonna take a bullet here and ask it a different way um because I also still don’t fully understand and I feel like this person needs an answer to it.

Deb: Mhmm.

Kristy: And so I was a little bit brave and like, this is a different way, and I got the answer to our question properly. And I felt like, I might look a little dumb for this because it-it feels like a really basic question, I don’t care. What have I got to prove to these people? Like…

Deb: Yeah, and that’s the thing is just not… worrying less about how you’re being perceived and focus more on, “if I need this information to do my job well, i need to get the information.” That’s literally part of the job is I need to understand this I need to get this information, and if that means asking a question in order to do it then you got to be willing to put yourself out there and not-not worry or assume that every person’s going to show up like that condescending jerk manager.

Kristy: Yes. Yes. And at the end of the day,

Deb: Because they’re not all like that! Like…

Kristy: Yeah, they’re not all like that and we’re fortunate, we don’t often get treated,

Deb: We are.

Kristy: We do not often get treated like that here. I think we’re kind of just talking in like, we’re not really-we’re not talking about seapoint. We’re talking about universal,

Deb: Baggage we…

Kristy: universal experience, baggage that we’ve had, and not even just in the corporate setting, but in life setting. You know? Like I said like just being,

Deb: With friends, with family.

Kristy: being anywhere, just in all kinds of relationships and being out in the world and how you know there’s a difference in how you get treated even at the grocery store, like by people based on how you present yourself and behave. I mean-I mean you can experiment with it for yourself, if you show up in sweatpants somewhere and you show up in a dress somewhere like, you get treated differently by people. People holding the door for you, you know? It’s like… it-it is just a thing that exists in this world,

Deb: Yeah.

Kristy: and it often is unfair and I’m not even just talking about women like I said I’m mentioning like uh, you know older people and younger people, and all-all we can do is speak about our own experience, right?

Deb: Right.

Kristy: Like I can only speak as a 36 year old woman and my experiences and if… I-I would love it if people would comment on their own experiences with this,

Deb: Yeah, for sure.

Kristy: all different kinds of people.

Deb: Are you a nice person that’s kind of had it…

Kristy: Are you a mean person?

Deb: Are you one that commands the room when you come in?

Kristy: Yeah, I would, yeah.

Deb: How do you do it? Tell us your ways!

Kristy: I would love to hear from men and like men that have experiences with how they’re treated. I’d love to hear from older people.

Deb: Yeah! Are they perceived a certain way? Is that… like this-this goes for everybody. This isn’t just a, “oh listen to our plight.” Like you said, like, this is-we can be checking ourselves too. Am I pa-am I thinking that person’s asking a dumb question?

Kristy: Yeah, I should-we should-I-if I had thought this through—I think follow-up episode is a good idea-I should-I could have, kind of, pulled everyone in the company, because we have so many different ages and, um,

Deb: Personalities, experiences.

Kristy: personalities, and races, and everything here! Like people who have…

Deb: Different countries…

Kristy: Yeah! Like I could have got a lot of diversified answers, I think, on how people feel they are perceived and treated. Um, so maybe a follow-up would be a good idea. I feel like this was just kind of a good conversation starter, because I feel like we both are kind of aligned in that we are both the funny nice girl and-and how that has really affected both of us.

Deb: We’re little!

Kristy: We’re little.

Deb: We look young!

Kristy: We’re both little, we both look young, and yeah. I do think that…

Deb: Yeah.

Kristy: It-I-there’s been perks to it too, do not get me wrong.

Deb: For sure.

Kristy: I-I get treated very well because of it, often, at times too.

Deb: Yeah.

Kristy: Like…

Deb: But professionally it can be hard sometimes.

Kristy: Professionally it can be hard sometimes, and it has been a lot. So I feel like it’s a good-it is a good thing to reflect on.

Deb: Yeah, so share your thoughts.

Kristy: Share your thoughts.

Deb: Leave comments wherever you’re listening or watching and maybe we can… let us know if you want a follow-up episode.

Kristy: Yeah.

Deb: Is this a worthwhile conversation to continue?

Kristy: Yeah. I think it is.

Deb: I do too.

Kristy: Yeah.

Deb: I like chatting with you, Kristy.

Kristy: Me too.

Deb: This was much more, you know, on the rails,

Kristy: Yeah, I feel…

Deb: from the last one.

Kristy: I feel like we stayed on the rails.

Deb: We-we-and that was a perfect example.

Kristy: Yes!

Deb: That episode showed us being a little ridiculous and just fun and having a good time with it and like I said if you came back and listened to this conversation we are also multifaceted people who know how to have a serious conversation also

Kristy: We-exactly. We know things

Deb: We do know things.

Kristy: If they don’t know that by now…

Deb: We have experience.

Kristy: We have experience. I have to ask you a question before we go.

Deb: Yes?

Kristy: Okay, um, this is “Get to Know the Team Member.”

Deb: You need like, uh—

Kristy: Sparkles! I need sparkles on the screen.

Deb: You need something that comes on the screen.

Kristy: Music!

Deb: A little slide through: “Meet the Team Member.”

Kristy: I’m—I’m trying all kinds of new stupid little graphics and—

Deb: See if I remember who works here again.

Kristy: Emojis and stuff. Okay, so which team member—

Deb: Which team member?

Kristy: Uh, so which team member enjoys listening to medical podcasts while creating art?

Deb: Maddie.

Kristy: Mmm.

Deb: Who else creates art… medical podcast…

Kristy: Which team member enjoys listening to medical podcasts while creating art?

Deb: Anna-Lynn? No? Medical… creating… art… Erika?

Kristy: No.

Deb: How many guesses?

Kristy: Those are good-these are good. These are good, though.

Deb: I’m thinking of our… I’m going through our creative team. Am I on the right track by going through our creative team?

Kristy: This person is, I guess, technically on the creative team, yeah.

Deb: Okay, technically… not really. So… if you say “technically,” that means not really.

Kristy: It’s like they’re on the outer branches of it.

Deb: Kevin? How many people do you want me to guess?

Kristy: How many do you want to guess?

Deb: I don’t…

Kristy: They are, um, a remote worker.

Deb: Okay.

Kristy: And they’re female.

Deb: Yuri!

Kristy: Yeah!

Deb: Ah!

Kristy: It’s Yuri.

Deb: Yes, she is on the creative team. She does—okay, ah, Yuri. That’s interesting.

Kristy: Yeah, I didn’t know she was a podcast lady. I don’t know if she listens… Yuri, are you listening?

Deb: Ah!

Kristy: We’re talking about you!

Deb: Comment if you’re listening.

Kristy: You know what, I bet she will because Christina—so, Christina, shoutout, Christina!

Deb: Christina’s awesome.

Kristy: She’s been helping…

Deb: Yes.

Kristy: On the—We—I finally have a team.

Deb: Yay!

Kristy: I finally have a podcast team! Um…

Deb: Because you valued your time and your worth, and you said, “I can’t do this alone.” And that’s okay.

Kristy: And she’s like—

Deb: “And I need a team.”

Kristy: Gift from God, because she’s been amazing. She has such an amazing strategy brain when it comes to the podcast and has come up with amazing ideas. She’s my little spreadsheet lady—topics, ideas…

Deb: I love it.

Kristy: And games! She’s the one who came up with this.

Deb: When you sent me her spreadsheet to look over, I’m like, “Dang, girl!”

Kristy: Yeah!

Deb: She’s got it together. Love it.

Kristy: All her. All her. So we have fun episodes with amazing Christina ideas coming.

Deb: Yes!

Kristy: So excited about it!

Deb: Yes.

Kristy: If you’re into all of this—

Deb: Keep listening.

Kristy: Keep listening, ’cause we’ve got—

Deb: Don’t shut us off yet!

Kristy: We’ve got fun stuff coming. Yeah, don’t shut us off yet.

Deb: It’s not always off the rails.

Kristy: If you like the off-the-rails ones, comment below because—

Deb: We can give them more of that.

Kristy: They’re more fun. They’re more fun to film, I gotta be honest. But we gotta offer value sometimes, I guess… and photos of Tim.

Deb: Oh man.

Kristy: Okay.

Deb: It’s good chatting with you, Kristy.

Kristy: Thank you for coming back again.

Deb: Yes.

Kristy: Come back soon!

Deb: Anytime.

Kristy: We didn’t run out of time this time.

Deb: We didn’t, but I do have to get on a call, so—

Kristy: Okay, okay.

Deb: We are, uh—

Kristy: We’re done then!

Deb: Signing off, yeah.

Kristy: Okay, see you guys next time!

Deb: Bye!

Kristy: Bye!