Office Imposters: Unmasking Burnout in Marketing

Kristy: Welcome back to another episode of the Free Dive podcast. I’m Kristy and once again we have as a special guest Bill Cutrer. Welcome back Bill Cutrer.

Bill: I’m starting to feel like I’m not really a guest, just part of the podcast.

Kristy: You are actually listed on the website page you are listed as a host.

Bill: So we’re just like it’s host day here.

Kristy: Yeah it is a little bit host day.

Bill: Yeah sometimes I find it’s nice with the podcast like we’re just kind of talking shop.

Kristy: Yeah.

Bill: Versus…

Kristy: Sneak away, be on the comfy chairs.

Bill: That’s right.

Kristy: And just have a little conversation.

Bill: Under the bright lights.

Kristy: Under the bright lights. Do you feel special?

Bill: I do feel special.

Kristy: So tell everybody the things we’re going to talk about today.

Bill: Yeah, I was thinking about it like what should be our subject and I think it’s also a good point of time to ask our listeners.

Kristy: Yes.

Bill: If they have any things they want to hear us talk about.

Kristy: Yeah and we did get you know I think it was a couple weeks ago last week that we got a
nice episode out of something that someone wrote in so please keep writing in. We really love that.

Bill: Cause we need to know what to talk about.

Kristy: That’s right.

Bill: Yeah um but I was thinking about today we were discussing a little bit earlier a topic was to talking about our mental health in the marketing field and specifically one of the areas where I feel like a lot of people I know struggle with is impostor syndrome.

Kristy: Yes, definitely.

Bill: Um so let’s open this up to you Kristy.

Kristy: Okay.

Bill: Do you ever do you ever get imposter syndrome.

Kristy: Yes, I feel like I have imposter syndrome almost every day like in some form or another uh when something’s not working and something breaks or I don’t know I get very like compare my work to other work and then I’m like I don’t know what I’m doing or I’ll never be as good as it
gets, it it gets that kind of for me so yeah that’s kind of where I go with it.

Bill: So where do you think the line is between like impostor syndrome and- and also just like looking at other people’s work and wanting to be like better or be the best out what we can be in the industry.

Kristy: I think that that’s a that’s a good question and I think that that’s a difference from where I used to be with it to where I kind of have pulled myself to where I am now it used to be more of a more of a like depressive like I’ll never be as good as that and now I’ve tried to channel it into more of a maybe I’m not as good as that but I will get there and how do I get there turning it into more of a question and curiosity and what is it that they’re doing that I can get there too and
so it’s almost like a good thing for me sometimes because I’m like if I’m not up to a standard in my mind that I want to be well that’s fine how do I get to that standard knowing that I could reach it.

Bill: Yeah and I think that’s a a good point because there’s I think there’s really two types of impostor syndrome like there’s the nagging like I’m a fraud and people are going to find out that this is this is all sham and the entire my life’s work is you know like someone’s going to stand up and be like that’s all fake but then there’s the other part where you’re constantly looking at how other people are doing things and I think that’s a little less negative because you’re I think if you can learn and look at your kind of what your your benchmarks are you see other people doing like an amazing job in the same field um it’s not as much that you’re an impostor it’s just that that admiration for the other work people have done.

Kristy: Yeah admiration is a good word for it.

Bill: Yeah, but I can totally really tell that feeling though of the impostor side because like I remember the first time I spoke on a national conference you know I’m up on the stage and I’m just like everybody here is going to know that I don’t know what I’m talking about and like there was like this voice just squawking my my head the entire time I’m on stage like they’re all going to know you don’t really know what you’re talking about.

Kristy: Yeah cause if you’re up here surely you’ve got to be some kind of big deal with tons of information.

Bill: Yeah.

Kristy: Yeah.

Bill: And then like and all like afterwards everyone was just like oh that was amazing and I’m not saying that just to toot my own horn like I..

Kristy: That’s what you’ve heard.

Bill: Right, but you know but like the the level of encouragement like I think we’re always so negative about ourselves with especially when we’re dealing with imposter syndrome that we think other people encountering our work are just going to be as dismissive and critical as we are of ourselves.

Kristy: That’s true,

Bill: Yeah.

Kristy: So how have you found that you pushed past it in moments that has happened for you.

Bill: I think for me with the impostor syndrome um I yeah it’s been difficult to kind of compartmentalize like understanding like why do I feel that way um it’s harder I find as the agency’s gotten bigger because the impostor syndrome you know where it might have popped up in the past like doing a certain task or saying like hey I’m building this thing or or like a speaking assignment right I’m giving- I’m giving a talk somewhere and um I’m giving a lecture somewhere you know where people are going to be like oh I feel like the people are going be like oh he just doesn’t know what he’s talking about um and then but like now I think the impostor syndrome is running a successful agency of the thought of being like it’s going to fall apart at some point like I’m just one one foot away from a misstep that’s going to just sink this agency and you know I’m going to have all these people that are going to go hungry and it’s all going to be my fault and like that weight it’s a different type of weight of impostor syndrome.

Kristy: So how do you kind of get all of that anxiety like out how do how do you yeah how do you get past that.

Bill: Yeah, I- I think a lot of it just like really kind of sitting back you know meditation on you know what good we’ve done.

Kristy: Yeah.

Bill: And you know it’s funny too because I feel like I spend a lot of time now where I am as far as agency ownership, management. I’m tackling other people’s imposter syndrome yeah and it’s
so funny to me because like I could talk to you Kristy, I could be like you’re not an impostor like you’re doing an amazing job like look at this podcast like you’ve put this podcast together and you’ve you know youve sourced equipment you’ve sourced the how to you know you’re not just doing it off of a MacBook speaker, you know like you’ve set this up really professionally you know and I’m highlighting these things like to you or you know to Maddie with her work or with Tim well Tim- Tim doesn’t have imposture syndrome um.

Kristy: Tim will never have impostor syndrome.

Bill: Um but like anyone else in the team Courtney you know I mean like I think Courtney is another great example cause you know for those who don’t know our office intimately Courtney has been here the longest besides myself and knows the ins and outs of everything you know and it’s funny cause like Courtney still struggles with that as well so I think like all the cheerleading I do for other people with imposter syndrome helps me a little bit to be like oh I think everybody deals with imposter syndrome a little bit.

Kristy: Yeah.

Bill: In fact I would almost say you know if you’re in the creative field if you’re in marketing and you don’t have a level of impostor syndrome there might be something wrong.

Kristy: Might be too much cockiness there like maybe you’ve got evaluate.

Bill: Yeah or just like a a lack of self-awareness you know because if you’re just like no I’m the real deal if you’re like I am the Slim Shady.

Kristy: Yeah so like you said there there is a balance.

Bill: Yeah, yeah.
Kristy: Yeah well and and I just think like looking at your experiences has to help right because for you you have to go well I’ve had this many years of successful business surely I’m doing something right you can’t argue that and also if you are just starting out you kind of have to cut yourself some slack and go well I am new to this so obviously I’m not going to be the best one at it.

Bill: Right and I- I think with that too is also understand that people in general are not looking to get you right people in general are are want to cheerlead no I mean clients too like I think if you’re honest when you make mistakes but you’re honest like hey I’m you know if if you’re not always just trying to self-promote you know and you’re like hey I’m legitimately coming with ideas or you know with team members like hey I’m I’m learning like I think everyone is tries to cheer everybody else on and I like it’s funny to me even like you think like outside of your own agency like so here we are we’re in Kittery Maine um near Portsmouth, New Hampshire big
marketing hub like you’ be surprised how Portsmouth New Hampshire is a really big marketing city it’s close to a HubSpot campus so gets a lot of kind of support from HubSpot regionally here in New England I feel like there’s got good saturation and I always thought it was going to be much more of a spirit of like almost kind of a snide attitude toward each other’s work or are that competitive and like everybody I’ve met like in like other agencies especially in that HubSpot ecosystem it’s very few people that I’ve walked away with being like oh that guy that guy’s a jerk you know most of everyone is just like they’re like excited about the projects you’re working on they like to cheer you on for your wins um you know when we’ve won awards like they’re the first ones to you know shoot us a text be like oh that’s awesome I saw I saw you won this award that’s awesome or you know and so I think knowing that even your- your- your um…

Kristy: Competitors?

Bill: Not competitors um I was going to say other.

Kristy: Colleagues?

Bill: Colleagues. Your colleagues that they are the ones that are also think you’re a real asset to your field.

Kristy: Yeah.

Bill: That helps a lot with like the impostor syndrome because here’s an outside person who’s saying nice things and and and and sees your growth in the industry like you’re growing.

Kristy: Yeah no that’s a good that’s a good point because I try in the social media community I try to engage with other people in similar fields as us whether it’s like other HubSpot people or other other um agencies or other video production accounts or other Matterport accounts or whatever and I try to do the same thing encourage them anytime I see them doing well you know that kind of thing and it and they do the same for us back and it does create that better sense of like yeah we’re all doing well and that helps.

Bill: Yeah, no totally agree and that is I think a good judge too like when you see other agencies or professionals in the field like getting that sense that you know again you’re going to have some type of competition but for the most part you understand that uh there’s a lot of work
to go around people want to help each other and I and I do think that’s kind of a a kind of a telling of you know the type of person and it was funny because when I first started out and I was younger and you know in the agency and I wanted to be the best and it was almost like a very competitive like I can do this job better I can do this I can get better results and like and
almost like that idea of like I’m competing and it it gets you a lot lot less and I think those feelings those like the impostor syndrome pops up more in those types of situations.

Kristy: It feels worse.

Bill: It feels a lot worse. Yeah when you’re trying to be like cutthroat and you know feel like you’ve got to be better than the you know just acknowledge it like they do good work.

Kristy: Yeah.

Bill: And you do good work and you know and I think that goes a long way from the Imposter syndrome because the more you’re like super critical of others then you’re going to be critical of yourself as well.

Kristy: Yeah and what kind of reput reputation does that create.

Bill: And it’s you know it’s counter for business right like I find you know the better relationships
you have in the industry it always comes back around.

Kristy: Oh yeah, so how do you think all of that relates to mental health in the workplace and in agencies what have you seen.

Bil: Oh I think that’s a big part of it so I will say I think in our field in marketing um again marketing is all about conveying information and emotion right and so I think people are a little bit more in tune or tend to be a little bit more honest um talking about their emotional health issues or mental health issues than maybe in other fields. I mean I don’t talk to a lot of lumberjacks I don’t know if there’s like a great Lumberjack community of talking about your depression.

Kristy: Uh huh.

Bill: Or maybe there is.

Kristy: Maybe there is we just haven’t found it.

Bill: Yeah.

Kristy: They need help with their SEO perhaps.

Bill: Perhaps. Um but you like think about marketing as a whole like I feel like it’s a very in tune with like emotional needs.

Kristy: Well psychology really.

Bill: Right the psychology but I think that the people that work in the field tend to maybe be a lot more open about struggles that they have um because they’re just easier at communicating um and that you know they that’s the skill I guess what I was trying to say marketing is about communication so marketing is about communication and so the idea that a lot of times people that work in marketing are much better about communicating their feelings.

Kristy: Yeah.

Bill: And with that that sense of empathy um I think within the field there’s there is a lot of empathy so I- I do see a lot more like especially like on social media people talking in our
industry about challenges that they have um which I think is positive you know the more that you can talk about it more you know you can tell other people that you’re not all right.

Kristy: Yeah.

Bill: Um goes a long way to getting help when it’s needed.

Kristy: Yeah and relatability and authenticity and because it’s just yeah it feels very feels very real.

Bill: Yeah and I do think you know every field’s going to have its challenges with mental health um I think you know in marketing we’re very screen oriented yes so we’re spending a lot of time on screens we tend to spend a lot of time on non-face-to-face communication because we’re again we’re emailing um a lot of our communication is on Zoom, Slack, Teams like all those formats versus like sitting down and having you know coffee and a face to-face conversation with somebody uh so I think that also can have its challenges yeah um we’re under deadlines a lot of times and then it’s just the and we need to get results.

Kristy: Yes.

Bill: Um you know it’s not a field it’s not a passive field you you have to maintain results for your clients or you’re you’re not going to have them so there’s I mean there’s that side of the pressure that I think can bring out mental health issues.

Kristy: In a lot of cases many projects carry a high uh level of pressure especially if you’re managing a lot of money you know that that could really elevate someone’s mental health stress wise or anxiety wise or otherwise.

Bill: Yeah I know making like doing um PPC management.

Kristy: Yeah.

Bill: Like when you’re running you know you managed millions of dollars.

Kristy: Right that’s what I’m saying.

Bill: And you know a mistake happens with that.

Kristy: Couldn’t be me.

Bill: No.

Kristy: Could not be me.

Bill: I- back in my PPC management days that was there was some times where you know your stomach just falls out.

Kristy: Couldn’t be me, I couldn’t handle it.

Bill: What’s the moment working that was like your most panicked what- what what was been your most panic moment of like something went wrong that you were just like you just want to burn the entire place down.

Kristy: I don’t know if it’s the biggest panic moment. I guess- I guess we’ll just cut this out if I can if you don’t want me to share it is when um I was on a Matterport and the camera fell over on the side walk.

Bill: Oh ohh yeah.

Kristy: And and I was like in these few moments of like is it broken or not and man that thing is built well because…

Bill: Shout out to Matterport.

Kristy: It was fine.

Bill: Yeah.

Kristy: I- but in those moments it was like it was on I was on a kind of a hilly sidewalk it was super windy and I set it down and I turned around and it had fallen and I wasn’t done with the job and I was just like I- I felt so sick I thought I was going to throw up and the in waiting for the next test spin to see if it was going to come out and work fine I just thought I was going to die but no it’s fine that thing is like a brick.

Bill: I think one of mine early on in my career so again before before Seapoint uh I I have to preface this is a before Seapoint um I was working for an agency and we were running ads for a luxury Yacht company.

Kristy: Oh yeah.

Bill: Like a really well-known like National brand of Yachts like probably like I’m not going to say who it is but when you think of the word like blank Yachts it’s probably the company you’re thinking of and I was running their Google Ads and I misspelled the word yacht in the ads and the CEO of the company is the one who found it. Yeah you want to talk about your stomach just dropping out and I remember um going back to you know at the time I was just so panicked and upset and you know my boss was just like yeah those things happen but I like to remember that for my own humility because you know when you know someone especially like PPC manager like when Jared back in the day would make a mistake you know when he was learning you know I’d be like…

Kristy: Shout out, Jared.

Bill: Yeah shout out Jared. I would be like yeah that’s a bad mistake but you know what you didn’t misspell the word Yacht when you were advertising Yachts to multi-million dollar customers who wanted to buy a yacht and you spilled it like yatch so yeah yeah and you know there’s been other of those types of dread mistakes that you’ve made but.

Kristy: Hard to get past but you do get past them.

Bill: Yeah I think it’s funny now the mistakes I made they are mostly like personal personnel mistakes like I’m like I’m trying to cheerlead somebody and it has the opposite result like I’m trying to be like yeah I did a great job cheering this person up or motivating them and then like I come back the next day and they’re just like the world’s ending cause you didn’t validated that correctly and I’m like no that’s not what you know yeah.

Kristy: Very different set of problems.

Bill: A very different set of problems. I’ve learned to spell I just haven’t learned how to deal with people’s feelings yet yeah.

Kristy: That’s what we’re talking about.

Bill: That’s why we’re talking about it.

Kristy: Yeah.

Bill: No but I- you know them I think also just that like that empathy for the mental health stuff because so many people do struggle with today.

Kristy: And so what do you think are like some practical tips that you’ve learned or you’ve seen for your staff or otherwise that you think have been practical and helpful for especially working in the marketing field but you know in business in general managing managing your mental health and your workload.

Bill: So I think you said something right there is like managing the mental health and workload so once you get to that point your workload exceeds what it you you can do like I think that having that modesty um that’s been as far as an agency side like having balance of like taking on clients not just taking on work for the sake of taking on work yeah um I think also you know where it’s good to challenge yourself in new tasks but being honest like hey is this is this a project we can handle um you know if it’s a case of bringing on other you know vendors to help is it going to cause more stress than it is to like actually just say hey there’s probably somebody else can do this job for you.

Kristy: Yeah.

Bill: Um I do think um I think also surrounding yourself with other people that are empathetic to mental health issues.

Kristy: Yes.

Bill: Um is a big thing so you know I think a number of people here at Seapoint struggle with something um mine’s PTSD with some with some depression sprinkled in you know just for a little you know little flavor.

Kristy: Just a little a little bit of flavor.

Bill: You know a little depression on top of your PTSD you know just makes it extra creamy.

Kristy: Yeah.

Bill: Um yeah um but like understanding like other people that are going through things in the office and I think the fact that I do talk about like hey yeah I got some things that I’m working on I
try to I try to be very open with the rest of the staff to be like hey do you notice anything or like like I really try to like bounce things off like am I reacting to this way because maybe there’s like a some type of trigger that I don’t fully understand and am I am I reacting like to this situation like if a client’s upset you know like my response to it like checking myself that way.

Kristy: Yeah.
Bill: Um or you know dealing with co-workers like you know why is my response this way um I think that’s a big thing um but as far as like knowing everybody else we all going through stuff I think it just makes it a lot more empathetic to be like we have to pick up each other’s um you know we have to lift each other up it’s really what it comes down to and you know and you’re in an agency again that goes back to like the type of environment and what you build um as far as like everyone’s always talk about like what their their company culture is, right and it’s like um great our company culture gets us a gym membership.

Kristy: Right.

Bill: Like but like having an actual company culture especially with deal like that openness to dealing with mental health to allow people to you know be okay with not being okay.

Kristy: Yeah and I think you hit the nail on the head right there with talking about communication because and how important that is because you know like cause like I- I have PTSD too and we
have both been able to be so understanding because we both understand how that feels and how just brief synopsis of what PTSD feels like it just sneaks up on you randomly and and triggers are are weird but to be able to express to anyone else on the team like I’m just going through it right now and it’s like I’m- I’m I might be this I might be that it’s not personal um and being able to communicate that so that if I’m being snappy with what was it that we said you said the other week we’re like we need a code word in case Bills being- forget what the code word was like you know we’re able to make some you know a joke out of it a little bit but at the same time we’re all able to just be like really open about like you know we’re not going to be you know we’re not going to be hurtful to each other in the process but we all know what’s going on here right so and being able to support each other through that.

Bill: We used to joke around that we had this giant wheel the office like The Wheel of Fortune we spin the wheel and it was like.

Kristy: Whose turn it is.

Bill: Yeah to be emotional dumpster fire yeah.

Kristy: And again I think you hired Tim because he’ll never be on the wheel.

Bill: Just never know.

Kristy: He has he has to be the stable one.

Bill:: He’s the stable one. It is funny like we’ve I think we’ve reached that point where we’re all dealing with something in a way and when you meet somebody or you know somebody who’s just like rock solid emotionally and you’re just like okay now you’re the weirdo.

Kristy: Yeah he’s a bit the Unicorn.

Bill: Yeah what’s that like not walking through life with emotional pain or impostor syndrome.

Kristy: Like fear all way.

Bill: Yes.

Kristy: Yeah.

Bill: Yeah. It is what is though yeah um…

Kristy: But no it but it was I think last week’s… This week’s episode one of the episodes Tina gim was talking about just in marketing how there’s just a high level of burnout and how that can just start to get to you because there’s just always one project’s done and then there’s another one and and how that can just lead to a high level of burnout and so kind of keeping tabs on your mental health is so important because of that because it’s just never ending inbox is never ending what what there is to do is never ending and and problems mentally and at home and personal life are also never ending and so checking in with yourself and making sure that you’re
taking care of yourself physically and emotionally at the same time is very important.

Bill: I think that’s the importance as well for disconnecting from everything from time to time like really like setting aside time to like just put it away I mean I know for myself it’s hard as an agency owner because it’s like it’s 24/7 you know.

Kristy: For you it’s really never ending.

Bill: Yeah, I trying to like have that boundary of work life and balance has always been a difficult one for me and it’s funny cause like when I do shut myself off from it like I’m heading out of town recording this and I’m heading out of town couple days um spend some t… much needed time in Canada um you know I always find like when I come back from those types of trips that I’m just like I have a lot more clarity for work I’m like okay we’re going to do this this and this and this is how we’re going to project and this is what we’re going to do um and you know like I know the value of it it’s just like carving that time out to do- do it yeah so.

Kristy: That’s true of everybody got to get a little bit of a break and breather.

Bill: Yeah, so I think if you know if you’re listening to this like I think the walk away the takeaway from this is you really got to take care of mental health you know if if you want to be you know don’t run from it you know I think that’s so many of us we just running and you know it’s it’s going to eventually catch up with you in your work it’s going to catch up with you you know and work stress is going to catch up in your personal life.

Kristy: Always.

Bill: Always so you know face it head on um you know take care of yourself um poster syndrome you know work work on it uh everyone else just everyone else is faking it like especially if you’re in marketing that’s the entire point of marketing is to make something look better than it actually is so when you look across the room or you look across to the other websites or the other agencies and you’re like oh man they just killing it and I don’t know what I’m doing like we’re all faking it.

Kristy: That’s very true.

Bill: Yeah, so keep faking it people.

Kristy: We are. Come along with us.

Bill: Yeah that should be my sales pitch. Hire us we’re faking it.

Kristy: Bunch of fakers. No I think being honest about it is the is the way that we’re not.

Bill: Cause the thing is if you know or you you have that understanding that you could be faking it which you no you’re not you’re really you know you’re doing your best you can but again that beats the person who just is like nope I know what I’m doing everything I do is great.

Kristy: Yeah.

Bill: Yeah.

Kristy: I would love to get some feedback on this episode above almost above all others because I would love to hear what people…

Bill: Yeah I wanna hear…

Kristy: If this is relatable.

Bill: Yeah I want to hear your- I want to hear your experiences with imposter syndrome slash what you struggle with or how you get through dealing with your mental health problems in this.

Kristy: If you’re listening on Spotify there’s a question box or you can drop in you can drop into to our Instagram DMS, YouTube comments, there’s so many ways that you can message us so
please message us.

Bill: Just slide into our DMS.

Kristy: Slide on in. That’s what they’re there for.

Bill: Yes.
Kristy: People are and if you have more uh episode ideas.

Bill: Yeah I need- I need more things to talk about so come on people give me some more ideas.

Kristy: Yeah otherwise we’re just gonna talk about what we want.

Bill: Yeah and that might turn into talking about hockey.

Kristy: That might get scary.

Bill: Yeah.

Kristy: Thank you for being here once again this was nice.

Bill: Good times, good times.

Kristy: And we’ll see you again next time.

Bill: Next time.

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